[00:00:30] Patrick: Hello everyone. Welcome to Episode one six of the Leadership Window. Glad to have you along. We've had guests from Paris, London, Nigeria, Hong Kong. We've never had a guest from the Netherlands before. Before today, that is. I'm really excited about our next guest because he is right in my lane and talks about the stuff that we spend a lot of time on in our organization and on this podcast. His name is Paul Turwall. Joining us from the Netherlands, Paul Turwall Consulting. Paul, if I were to introduce him briefly, is helping employers understand that the happier their people are, the more money they're going to make. Maybe that's a great way to do this. I'm interested in hearing Paul talk a little bit about his journey to this world because it started on the legal side of corporate work and actually in the field of Social Security and employment law. And he saw some things about in the legal field, he saw some things that he wanted to change and he wanted to get involved in. And so he has sort of flipped the script and changed his work and left the legal side a couple of decades ago and moved more into improving humanity and particularly in the workplace. So he leads with his core values and he now establishes consulting engagements that help companies identify and truly live their own values. Some of you have worked with us on values and culture and how we sort of see how those two link.
This guy is the expert, though. We really want to hear not only from his research but from his experience. So Paul, I just can't thank you enough for carving the time out. And I don't even know what time it is there where you aRe, but I think it's earlier in the morning maybe than it is here. I don't know. But welcome to the show. Glad you're here.
[00:02:32] Paul: Thank you, Patrick. It's here.
[00:02:35] Patrick: A 03:15 p.m. That's right, you're later than we are. I should have known that you were talking about how you finally have light there after starting your morning early. So anyway, glad you're here, Paul.
I introduced you very briefly. So I'm just going to start by just letting you introduce yourself a little bit more deeply, maybe explain a little bit more about your journey and what you're doing for the world and how you got here.
[00:03:05] Paul: Yeah, thank you. Well, I'm 65 years old, so I've been in the market more than 40 years.
And in the 80s, you were happy if you found a job. It was that easy. In the Netherlands, there weren't that many jobs. So if you got one, you stayed there. And I started as a lawyer in Social Security law, as you said, I did it for five years. Then I started working as a general manager for health insurance company.
And if you look at that kind of companies, you're always at the back end of something. People are ill, they go to hospital. And we were giving them money to pay the bills. And if they were sick, we gave them money to survive in the world.
So it was, as lawyer, always the nasty things that we had to take care of. It was that red files, as we call them, they're not green. That there are the happy people. Then the orange ones, they have some trouble surviving. And then the wet ones, they are sick, they're disabled, they're whatever.
I spent ten years of my career in that field.
And you said you're a professional speaker. Well, I'm too. And what I did in court, when I was there, I played theater. So I made fun with the judges about the other side, and we had nice conversations. And at one time, a judge said to me, Paul, Paul, this is enough theater. If you want to play, go to the opposite side of the road, and there is a national theater you can play there.
And then I thought, now I must leave. So I became a professional speaker. I traveled around the world. I was president of the Global Speakers Federation, the International Federation of All Speaker Associations. And I could travel and explore what was going on in the world, because we have different cultures and different laws and all kind of stuff.
And sometimes we forget that we are touching human beings, not human resources, but human beings. So I checked all over the world, what is culture doing what is most important for human beings?
And I found out that it is working and living from your core values, your non negotiables, as my friend Sam Silverstein from St. Louis calls it.
And that's when I started my trip, my exploration on employee engagement.
[00:05:57] Patrick: Wow. Well, man, I have so many questions I want to ask you that I'm sure we won't have time for today. But since you've mentioned culture around the globe, I want to start there. What have you found? For example, can you give some examples of how cultures are different in the employee world, in the workplace world?
I don't know, for example, if you've done work here in the States, how does it differ from the Netherlands to the States, to wherever else you might have worked? What are one or two things you found different?
[00:06:27] Paul: What I see, for me, culture is fixed behavior. It's the way we do things around here. So it's, for me, the outside of what people are doing in the US, you want to make it.
It's different than Europe, where we have great Social Security. So there is no need to be the very best. In the US, you want to be the very best. You want to have the American dream. If you go to Asia, it's totally different. People are behaving more in distance. You have a boss, and then you have somewhere a kilometer away, you have the employees, and they obey, they listen and they perform.
And it's changing in the world. In South Africa, you have, of course, the people who can make it, mostly the white people, to be honest. And then you have a group in between who are going into the first world. And you have the people that live still in the third world, who are poor, who still live in villages where they don't have water or electricity, and they walk one and a half hour to go to their. And it's so strange to see those different cultures in one country. I've been in Namibia five times, worked there with big companies, and I was surprised that within one organization, they can have two or three different cultures working together.
And that made me curious.
What is it that if people have a different culture in one organization, because of their heritage, because of the history, they can still work together? Well, that's because they're all human beings.
They have the same needs. Maslow told us about us many years ago.
And then you think, oh, that old Maslow, that's wrong. No, he's still right. It's still there. So you can see the basic needs going up. And the third world is still fighting for those basic needs. And they can make one step higher on the ladder, but then they need to work hard and sacrifice a lot, but they can make it. And then you see, if you have a conversation with a human being, even when they are poor, they walked for 2 hours. You get the same kind of answers that you will get in the first world.
And that's the amazing part, that we are all connected one way or another.
[00:09:16] Patrick: One of the things that we are learning today, or experiencing today in the workplace, is that I think I've heard some generational experts say that for the first time, we have five different generations in the workplace together. And so we talk a lot about the generational differences and working with people of cross generations, but then there's this dynamic you're talking about where people of different, entirely different cultures, societal cultures, not just workplace cultures who are coming together. And as you said, we're all humans. But is part of your consulting work. I know you do a lot of work in the space of employee engagement and fulfillment. Do you do some of your consulting work around helping companies figure out how to work interculturally, how to help managers understand that not all of the people that are on their teams experience the same set of values and culture as they do?
[00:10:09] Paul: Yeah. One of my colleagues is an expert in that field because he works for companies where they have 25 different cultures at the workplace. So they import people from around the world and they work together. I'm working for a laboratory who took the best people from the world in some field, and they need to work together to get the best result.
And that gives stress because they want to go for the result, but it also gives stress because of generations and cultures.
So I focus on the engagement park and my colleague looks at inclusion, diversity, equality and belonging.
And that's really exciting to see how that works, because I don't believe in fixed generations. I'm on the border of baby boom and X.
In the US, I'm a baby boomer. In Europe, I'm an X. So have I got some strange issues? Yes, of course, but not because of my generation.
So X-Y-Z Alpha, they are different because they live in a different time frame.
[00:11:31] Patrick: Yeah, that's right. Well, and your work, I love that you're working with a colleague, because those two things, they're not separate either.
The diversity, equity and inclusion space, the cultural space is not separate from employee engagement. In fact, it's a huge part of it. We talk a lot in our work about self determination theory, the autonomy, the competence, and the relatedness. And that relatedness piece may be one of the biggest pieces of that culture. People want to relate. They want to be able to.
There's cultures I just can't relate to because I haven't experienced them and I don't understand them. But there's also the competence side and what I have found. Tell me if this has been your experience. I'd be surprised if it wasn't. But we often see people of other cultures.
People from one culture might see people from another culture as incompetent, and it's not because they're incompetent. It's because their language is different. Their approach is different. Their culture is different. And, man, the countless times that I've been surprised by my own biases and what I've really found.
And so that self determination theory, I think, plays into the two bodies of work that you and your colleague are working.
[00:12:54] Paul: Absolutely.
In Dutch, we can call it ABCD, but if we translate it into English, the D must be a P, and that's purpose. So it's autonomy, belonging, competences and purpose.
Those four are the connecting factors within an organization, but also within cultures. And if we don't understand the purpose within a culture, we dislike them. It's that easy. We don't get them.
We see it with a lot of people from Eastern Europe who lived in the Russian atmosphere for 40, 50 years. Then they came out and they had to adjust to the Western way of looking because they were used to be poor, to be checked by the government the whole day, checking on phones, on letters, on whatever, and suddenly they felt freedom. And for them, freedom was scary. For us, it's a must have. If we don't feel freedom, we can't survive.
They were never taught what freedom was, so they came into the Western world. They were scared because you could do anything you wanted.
Nobody was telling you what to do. And we still, after 50 years, see that difference.
[00:14:19] Patrick: But you had to compete. You could do what you wanted, but as you said earlier, you have to compete because there's a lot of people wanting to do the same thing you're wanting to do. And there's a marketplace for it, and there's only so much room in the marketplace. So there's more competition.
[00:14:35] Paul: Yeah, but the last five years, in the coming 20 years, we will see that we need more people, that there won't be that much competition anymore. We have a shortage of people in Europe that affects health care, it affects education, it affects all the big businesses.
There is a shortage already of more than 5% on the labor market, and that has to do that. A lot of baby boomers are now retiring.
And we had it at 65. We increased it to 67. So I got a letter six months ago, pAul, you can't retire at the age of 65, which I am now. You will have to work on at least two years extra because we can't retire you because we need you in the workplace.
And if you're talking about engagement and happiness at work, well, this affects a lot of the happiness at work.
[00:15:37] Patrick: Yeah.
So let's talk about. Well, and by the way, same thing over here in the states of increasing the retirement age. But it's not because we need you in the workplace. It's because we're running out of money in our retirement to. We have to spread it out a little bit.
Let me. Let's get to the terms here for just a minute. We've used the word happiness, and we've used the word engagement. And this might be a place where, again, this might be a cultural language difference. When I think happiness, I think about satisfaction. Am I happy? Meaning, am I happy with what my job is giving? To me, which we call job satisfaction, engagement is a little different in our world, where it's not how happy I am, it's how motivated I am to give to my job. So it's not about getting from, it's about giving to. And I do know that those two are connected. If you look at Herzberg's theory, know motivation and the hygienic side is the happiness or the satisfaction, and the motivating side is the engagement. How are you finding those linkages? Where's the intersection for you between the happiness my job gives me and the commitment I give to my job?
[00:16:54] Paul: Yeah, they are connected. But I think engagement is much stronger than the short term happiness. The who? Gurus of Facebook and Instagram.
For me, engagement is much more solid. It's about vitality, it's about absorption, it's about committed in, not with.
So happiness, as you say, is satisfaction for us. And if you look at Gallup, and Gallup is doing a lot of tremendous research, and some professors will say, oh, it's not good enough. It's not deep enough, but, well, they're doing it for more than 20 years in 140 countries, so I believe them. And then you see that in Europe, we have about an average of 15% fully engaged people. We have 18% fully disengaged people, and the rest is happy, satisfied. They go to work, leave in time, get their money on time, and they like the work outside their work.
If you are really engaged, then I always say, you go to work with a lot of energy and you go home with even more energy.
That is the result. Not every day, of course, but overall, engagement leads to more energy.
[00:18:18] Patrick: I love that. I love that because energy is replenishable, and when your work is giving you, is replenishing what it's taking and then some. That's incredible. I love that. And I also love your use of the word absorption. I've never thought of that word as engagement, but you're right. How absorbed am I in my work? One of the things that we measure in our engagement is we ask people how much they agree with the statement.
My workday goes by very fast because I'm very engrossed in my work.
I don't know if that's the kind of absorption you're talking about, but yeah, I'm all in. You also mentioned 15% engagement. And did I hear you say 18% disengagement?
[00:19:00] Paul: Yes.
[00:19:01] Patrick: So if that's a boat, the illustration we use, if that's a boat and you've got a number of people rowing toward the right direction, a bunch of people sitting in the middle, and then you've got people in the back that are actually rowing the other direction and you've got more of them than you have. That's a big issue.
[00:19:18] Paul: I use a carriage.
[00:19:20] Patrick: Yeah, okay. Horses.
[00:19:21] Paul: The ones in front are the horses pulling me forward and the ones in the back are holding us back. And what you hope is that the front 20% of the people on the carriage are supporting the ones in front of the carriage. So they're not just waiting. Of course they're doing something.
But it's different than the US where you have more than 30% engaged people, but you also have 25% fully disengaged people.
[00:19:50] Patrick: Yeah. Well, is that part of that we have to mentality? I mean, is it the case that in Europe I just don't have to be.
Would you say living in the Netherlands and working so much with European companies, would you Say that employees in Europe feel less a need to give their all because of think?
[00:20:17] Paul: I think we have a long tradition that goes on for centuries where first the church was taking care of when you couldn't work, and then in the early thirty s of last century, we started with Social Security. And I'm not blaming Social Security because we have an amazing system that supports employers and employees to work, but it can also lead to some sort of mentality.
Do I need to spend 40 hours at work? Nah, I can survive with 28 hours.
[00:20:55] Patrick: Now. Is job satisfaction higher though?
[00:20:59] Paul: Satisfaction is high, but not engagement.
[00:21:02] Patrick: Interesting.
[00:21:03] Paul: So that's the big difference. We see an awful lot of people who are really satisfied with what they are doing, but they're happy that they are at home, that they can do their hobies, that they can stay with their families, that they can support because they earn enough money. And even when they get sick, they are supported with 100% of their income for at least one year. So even if you can't work, you get money.
I'm not saying that it makes you lazy, but it makes you less in absorption, less committed to your work. It makes you more on the outside. In the Netherlands, we are the world champions in part time working.
The average hours for females is 24 hours a week and for male, 30 hours a week.
[00:21:59] Patrick: Interesting, because we earn enough.
[00:22:02] Paul: If we live together, we have enough money to survive. So you see that engagement is not there.
[00:22:09] Patrick: You know, that's interesting too. We could get into a whole philosophical conversation about the word.
There's. That's a virtue among many of the people that I'm talking to. Enough is enough. I don't need exorbitant, I don't need extra. I don't need abundance. I just need sufficient. And when sufficient happens in Europe, I'm happy, is what I'm hearing you say. I'm content with enough. And that's a pretty powerful thing to dig into philosophically, don't you think?
[00:22:38] Paul: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And that's what I look about in the current last two or three years, because it's becoming more obvious with the lack of people working, the numbers that are available on the other end. We have enough people who are not working full time. And then you get the discussion by politicians, by churches. What is your obligation as a member of society to participate in society.
And then a lot of people say, yeah, but I help my parents who are still living at home, and I'm spending 1012 hours to support them. So I make my contribution to society as well. So if they earn enough, then they can spend that 12 hours for their parents or sick brothers or sisters.
So, yeah, that's quite a discussion, and it will be the most important topic, I think, in the next four to six years.
[00:23:41] Patrick: Yeah, I think you're right.
Where is the balancing act between one extreme, which is laziness, and another extreme, which is pure greed?
And somewhere in the middle there is, again, enough. And then the question about, well, is it necessarily a negative thing or an unfavorable thing to want more than enough? Is it bad to want abundant?
Those are great conversations, but it helps me reconcile a little bit the differences you're talking about in terms of engagement.
Let's talk about this term happiness a little bit more here. Your book, you have a book published in Dutch right now called the Happiness Makes Money. And I think the English version is coming out first or second quarter of 2024, hopefully, because I can't read it until it comes out in English, unfortunately.
But happiness makes money. So I think I get that. The title to me sounds pretty self explanatory. If employers understand that a positive, fulfilling employee experience is more likely to lead to a positive and fulfilling customer experience.
Yes. Here's my question for you, and this might differ from culture to culture, too. As an employer, where does my job end in making you happy?
[00:25:15] Paul: I think it ends at the borders of what you ask me to do within your company. So for me, it is supporting employees. It's not only supporting human beings, because that's wider, that's broader than supporting employees. Good.
What I see is a lot of managers are telling employees what they do and what I see. And because of the society is changing, there needs to be more respect for professionals.
I can tell an American football player how he should behave and what he should do, but most of the time, what I see, and I'm a big American football fan, that is, the whole team works together. They know exactly what to do, and they're all professionals. And the head coach will say, shall we do this one? And they discuss exactly what to do. What I see within companies, that managers tell the professionals what to do and how much hours to work and how much result to create. And they say, next month we need 10% more EBITDA. So work harder. You're not going to make me feel happy.
We train people to be professionals, and then we should address them and support them and facilitate them as professionals. And a lot of managers are telling people what to do instead of asking them, how can I support you? What do you need from me to be on your 100% professionalism?
[00:27:07] Patrick: I want to touch on this just a second, because you said something a minute ago, I hadn't thought as much about this. Well, I have thought about the differentiation, but I hadn't framed it the way you did. You said the difference between supporting employees and supporting human beings.
And I know that a lot of the leaders that I coach struggle with that balance because we think as leaders. And I work a lot, by the way, with nonprofit leaders who are very often consider themselves to be servant leaders.
And they have an altruistic motivation and they have a high level of empathy for not just the clients their organization serves, but for their employees. And that serves sometimes to their detriment because they focus too hard on feeling like they are responsible for supporting the human being at all times and not focus on make sure I'm supporting the employee.
And it's a fine balancing act, because as an employer, there is a level of performance you need. There is an expectation you are being paid to produce a certain value and to model the culture that we want, and yet we allow the human being side to excuse some of the lack of performance and competence that we might see because we're so focused on supporting the human being. And for us, that leads to the inability to discipline or even terminate somebody that just is not bringing the value they need to break. That's a tough balancing act.
[00:28:50] Paul: Oh, absolutely. And I think that we should go back to ownership for employees.
They are responsible for their employability.
So if I sign a contract with you, I need to deliver. I own that responsibility. So I need to be aware that my employer can support me in some ways.
Let's say a parent dies and you're mourning and you have mental issues because of it, then there is that thin line between being supportive and facilitating and taking care of.
And I think we should facilitate and say, hey, do you need some space? Do you need some time off?
But I will support you with a coach because I want you back as soon as possible, and it's about as soon as possible.
I'm not taking over the responsibility that you have. So it is a thin line. And I think the last 1015 years, we were going, for me, too much to taking over what's going on in someone's private life, and we should give people ownership and facilitate them in there. So servant leadership, for me, is not what it should be. It should be facilitating and supportive. Servant means I'm serving you as an employee.
No, I have a business role, and I want to facilitate you so you can be the maximum professional that you say you are.
[00:30:37] Patrick: Man, you're singing my song.
I love what you're saying.
I try to encourage our leaders carefully because I'm trying to be a coach and not a consultant, but I'm certainly trying to help leaders understand the difference between servant leadership and steward leadership. And you can be a steward leader under which Servanthood falls.
Their servant leadership lives within steward leadership, but not necessarily the other way around. And if you go back and look at Robert Greenleaf's work on servant leadership, it is all about serving every individual.
And that's good. That's servant. But it's not always leadership and the steward leadership, particularly in the nonprofit sector. If I'm the CEO of a nonprofit organization with a public trust to spend donated dollars for the common good of society, I am a steward of the mission. I'm a steward of the public trust. And if I've got employees who are working against that mission, who are inhibitors to using those public dollars effectively, I have a steward responsibility now to serve the donor in the public, not to serve the incompetent or underperforming or whatever the cost.
[00:32:02] Paul: Where my vision and mission comes from, alignment between core values.
I wish that every organization, every company has their four or five core values, and Sam Silverstein calls them non negotiable. You can't negotiate with your core values. They should be on the homepage of an organization.
Zeppos, for example, in the US, in Las Vegas, selling shoes online, they had the ten family core values on their main screen, and they're selling shoes. But if you want to work there, you need to fit in those ten family core values. If not, you must leave.
[00:32:48] Patrick: Well, the challenge I see. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:32:52] Paul: They have their core values. You are asking to work there as a professional. And, of course, you have your own set of core values, and they must align. If they don't align, find another job.
[00:33:05] Patrick: You'Re in the wrong place. That's right.
[00:33:07] Paul: Absolutely.
[00:33:07] Patrick: And, of course, one of the challenges that we find is that companies stop at. We've got them on our website.
We've listed our values on our website. Therefore, we live values. And it couldn't be farther from the truth. In many cases, yes. Honesty, integrity, transparency, all of those things, they're listed, but that's listing them is the easy part. Living them and modeling them is where it really comes down to what's happening.
[00:33:37] Paul: What I love to see is that in the onboarding program, iT's the big part of onboarding.
[00:33:45] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:33:45] Paul: Because you know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. You want to hire me, and then we need to fit.
So, you know, I'm a professional. I know you're a professional. But there must be alignment between those core values. And that's why I use happiness makes money. If we can align, there will be happiness, engagement, profitability, because we are aligned in core values, mission vision, and we can do the planning and progress. If there is disalignment, then I can be a servant leader, and I can facilitate you 100%. But it's not going to work because I lack that ownership for that alignment. So I look at employees as much as to employees, because, let's be honest, employers are most of the time human beings. They have the same issues. So we need to see that. If I go to a company first, what I do is look at their website, and like you said, it stated somewhere about us, and then you see Mission vision. Oh, we see some core values.
I saw a company last week who had their four family core values, and it's building constructing company on the main page, and they said, if you want to work here, see if you are aligned to our core values, because everybody knows they are a construction factory, but if you want to work there, you need to fit in that family feeling, and that's what I love the most.
[00:35:31] Patrick: Well, that's good.
It helps me understand your broader definition of happiness. So when I say, where does my job end in making you happy, and happy is job satisfaction. When you say, happiness makes money, you're really talking about that happy and healthy relationship between employee and employer that goes beyond just the surface of happiness. If I'm hearing you right, the point.
[00:35:55] Paul: Is, we had another title, but that took too long. So that was why we said, happiness makes money. People are triggered by it. And I see a lot of gurus and coaches who say, oh, you need to be happy. No, it needs to make money. There needs to be profitability, not only for the shareholder, but also for all the staKeholders.
[00:36:18] Patrick: That's so good.
[00:36:18] Paul: I make profitability much broader as well.
But, hey, we're here to earn money and to get some money, and we're not here to be happy.
It's nice, but it's part of our role.
[00:36:34] Patrick: So, Paul, I happen to be of the persuasion that I've heard companies say we put our customer first, and I know what they mean by that, and I appreciate that.
If I owned a for profit company, and I have run nonprofit organizations. But you don't own them. But if I owned a company that had a bunch of employees, I really think my philosophy would be, we put our employees first, because to me, if you do that, the customer will have. I mean, if your employees are engaged, they will ensure the customer is satisfied. Do you share that? I've had people challenge that, but what's your take on that?
[00:37:13] Paul: Well, I must say, about ten years ago, Richard Branson from Virgin said, I'm not working for my customers. I only take care of my employees. They will take care of my customers. And that's that thinking that your employees are the professionals.
They know what they're doing and they are in direct connection with the customers.
So if they fail, the customer will have that feeling. And then the CEO can say, well, customers come first, but he's not projecting it on the employees, so they don't believe it.
And if you go to Gallup and Oxford and Harvard and you want to find out what the result of engagement is, you see that the customer loyalty goes up by 10% because productivity goes up by almost 20% if people are more engaged. So if people are engaged, I get more productivity out of them. And it's in a positive way that customer loyalty and satisfaction goes up as well. So I always look who is really connecting with the customer. And in a hospital, most of the time, it's the doctors, but more the nurses.
And if nurses are stressed, I, as a patient, will feel that they are stressed. They don't have time for me, and my customer engagement will go down.
[00:38:42] Patrick: Wow. So well said. So well said.
[00:38:44] Paul: And it's everywhere. Go into a shop and Starbucks, and I know that they work hard on employee engagement, so they are the good example. If you go everywhere in the world, you say the same Starbucks, you have the same personality greeting you, you have that fine, positive mindset that those people have. So if I come in Starbucks in Vintuk, Namibia, or I come in New York City in Starbucks, I will be approached in the same positive, optimistic way.
That's engagement, that's connected to core values.
[00:39:27] Patrick: Chick fil A is the same way. They're known for that as.
So in the time we've got left, I would love to hear from you what you have found to be the primary keys to engagement.
I know you've got a set of them and we don't have time to unpack them all, but I'd love to hear from you what you have found them to be. If I'm an employer and I'm looking to drive engagement, not job satisfaction alone, but create a culture where my employees are absorbed and engaged and committed and giving, what are the seven keys that you've identified as those?
[00:40:09] Paul: Yeah, the seven keys are more the results of what I see when people are engaged. So for me, it's the ABCP. Like you said, autonomy. I need to have that feeling that what I find in my work is important to my boss. So if you go into a company and a cleaning person is busy over there, and you ask them for advice, most of the time they look at you, what are you doing? Are you asking me for advice? And I say, yeah, you're the professional. I have an issue and can you help me out? And people feel that I make them more important. So listening to the experience and the craftsmanship of human beings is very important because that gives them that feeling of autonomy.
Training them, long life every time, if they want to do a training, whatever, give them the money to do so. Make them responsible for their own employability.
Belonging is one of them as well.
We've seen during Corona, in lockdowns, that the connection, the relation between human beings was cut off.
Now we see in the hybrid workforce, which is only 40% of all employees. The rest needs to be on a location in that 40%. They need to spend time in the office as well, otherwise they miss that connection, that belonging to a team, to a group.
Leaders should work on those issues. And the P of purpose is that especially the young generations aren't working anymore for money only. They work also for purpose. They want to be part of the big society, of global, and they want to fulfill a purpose in life.
We have extension, rebellion, who is against all kind of oil, gas and that kind of companies.
They feel a big need to work on their purpose. I don't say that I'm in agreement with them, but I see that younger generations are fighting more for their future than we were, because we needed to survive in the. We needed to earn money, we didn't have any, and we wanted to have a car and a house and a holiday. So they are standing on our shoulders and they are looking much more for purpose. So for me, autonomy, belonging, competences, looking for purpose, finding your core values, and how do you do it as leaders? Well, talk with those people and listen to them and ask them questions, because I found out that there are 16 ways that you can earn your money back if you invest in human beings, and I will mention seven, and I did already, productivity and customer loyalty. But we saw in the Netherlands that an engaged person will be 80% less in sick leave than somebody who is disengaged. So if you are an average of ten days not working, an engaged person will be sick for only two or three days.
That saves you a lot of money. Especially in the Netherlands, we pay the income 100% for two years. So if you're ill, you're at home, we will pay your income. Why we want you back because we need you.
[00:43:56] Patrick: This is a shortage.
[00:43:57] Paul: Yeah, because of the shortage. What we see that well being goes up with 60%, retention goes up by 45%. You had the big quitting. People were resigning during corona in the Netherlands, we saw it was 50%, it's now 30%. People who want to go to another company because life isn't better over there, but they didn't find that ABC in their own organization anymore. They didn't sense the purpose.
And what we see that's really directly connected with money sales goes up with 20%. If you have an engaged salesman or somebody who is a little bit disengaged or fully disengaged, he will sell less because he is not committed, he's not involved, he is not part of the organization.
A really engaged employee sells 20% more.
Well, if you want proof for profitability. There it is. And by the way, especially in healthcare, they make less mistakes, more than 60% less mistakes in surgery, in operations, in taking care of human beings. That should convince the listeners that's life or death.
[00:45:21] Patrick: I mean, that's engagement driving life or death.
[00:45:24] Paul: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Patrick: You mentioned retention. I think that's a big one for organizations, because churn, employee churn costs a lot of money, and most companies don't actually even calculate what it's costing them because they don't know how to. But it is costing them.
[00:45:37] Paul: It will cost you a year salary.
[00:45:39] Patrick: Yeah, that's economics.
[00:45:41] Paul: Oxford Economics did research on it, and Harvard published on it, and they say it's a minimum of one year salary, and for some, it will be two times a year salary. So you need to work very hard as new employee to get that money back.
[00:46:00] Patrick: I wish I could carry you around in my pocket, Paul, because you affirm all of my philosophies with research.
I appreciate that.
[00:46:08] Paul: Well, the point is, there was so much hesitation when I started working in this field that I thought, and Corona helped me, because I was at home, I wasn't traveling around the world, and I thought, there must be some research done. And then I looked at Gallup, and Gallup is giving all the resources that you need to find. So there is a lot of scientific research on these numbers.
I also found about theft by your own employees. It goes down with more than 40%.
So it's silly, but a lot of people steal from their own company, not only pens, but computers, whatever.
And that goes down because when I'm engaged, why should I steal from my own eMployer? I'm not going to do it. So it's broad. It's 16 different fields.
And if you calculate, and the Brits did it, the Warwick University, they say if you invest $1 in well being, you will earn four. At least.
[00:47:20] Patrick: Yeah, at least.
[00:47:22] Paul: That's a big return on investment. And I call it the ripple of impact, because it's impacting a lot of people. If I'm engaged, customers engaged, we'll spend more money, profitability will go up, shareholder will be happy, my family will be happy. So it's not 1 st, it's that ripple effect that you see in the water.
[00:47:45] Patrick: I would think it would be a lot more. I bet four to one is a very conservative figure, because, absolutely, if you take the costs of, like we said, just the churn alone, if you take the costs, the cost of new customer acquisition, when you lose a customer, it costs far more to acquire one than it does to retain one. So we're not talking just about employee retention, we're talking about customer retention. You're talking about 20% more productivity. You're talking about loyalty. I mean, you combine the savings with the additional revenue.
I bet four to one is conservative.
[00:48:23] Paul: I can tell you, Warwick University in the middle of the UK, they have the positive mindset. $1 in is $8 out.
And I believe them. But if I'm trying to convince a CEO, and especially CFO, I want to have clear data. And then it's one on four. Hey, where can you earn 400%?
[00:48:49] Patrick: Absolutely. Yeah.
Sign me up.
[00:48:53] Paul: I will immediately.
[00:48:55] Patrick: Oh, man, Paul, this is just so good. I want to pause for a minute and invite people to your website, palturwall.com. That's Paul Paulterwal, palturwall.com. To learn more about what Paul's doing, access to a number of different resources, some of the things that he's covered in this show.
If you want the book happiness makes money, it is in Dutch right now, and it will be in English soon. What was that, Paul? B O L.com bol.com. We'll get you to the site that has the book in Dutch for any of our Dutch listeners but Paul. And we'll have that information and the link on our episode page, too. But boy, we could spend all day on this. But let me start to wrap up our time together with a couple of questions I like to ask all of my guests. And with your bent on leadership and your experience, your decades of experience in the field, I'm really curious to know from you, who comes to mind immediately when I ask you about a leader in your life, somewhere in your life, past, present, a person from history, maybe, that you've never met anyone, a leader who comes to mind, who has had great impact on your leadership, not just your success, but your philosophy of leadership and how you view leadership, who would that be for you and why?
[00:50:39] Paul: Well, I think if you want to have a famous name, Henry Minsberg.
He is far in his 80s now, Canadian.
He still publishes books, he still has podcasts. So if people want to see what the new tendencies are in leadership, he is amazing. And in my personal life, I had a guy, I was in Social Security, and I made a step to consultancy in an IT company, but they were only making IT software for Social Security companies. And I was that in between the companies that were doing Social Security and the IT company, and that guy Vin Blaker just said to me, Paul, I think you're a professional. I'd never been in it before. He said, but you're a professional. Just start working. And he gave me so much space. At some point, I thought, too much space.
And in that time, in that first year, I wrote my first book because he just said, go ahead, make it happen.
[00:51:53] Patrick: Wow. Talk about autonomy.
That's an extension of autonomy right there.
[00:51:58] Paul: Yeah.
[00:51:59] Patrick: Wow. So you might have given me a hint into your answer on this last question. As we wrap things up, if you had 15 seconds with a mega horn to all the leaders of the world to tell all the leaders of the world, no matter the industry, tell all the leaders of the world. One thing to keep in mind, what is the Paul Turwall single tenet of leadership that's paramount for you?
[00:52:26] Paul: If you want to increase profitability, start listening to the core values of your employees and see how they connect with your own non negotiables as company.
[00:52:40] Patrick: Wow. Well, that's consistent with everything you just shared with us. Listen. Absolutely listen.
Yeah. It's a shame we have to actually teach listening. Right. We have to really remind our people, hey, listen, two ears, one mouth. Listen twice as much as you talk. Paul, this is.
[00:52:56] Paul: Oh, yeah. We even say three times. We call it the A three philosophy. Attention, attention, attention.
[00:53:04] Patrick: Oh, that's good.
[00:53:05] Paul: The same as listen.
They are the experts. You're just the leader.
[00:53:13] Patrick: That's right. What did I. I read somewhere yesterday?
Let's see. Oh, gosh. How was it worded? Something about, employees are not in organizations to serve leaders, leaders are in organizations to serve people.
[00:53:29] Paul: Absolutely.
[00:53:29] Patrick: Something to that effect which aligns and.
[00:53:32] Paul: It doesn't make you less important.
I think it's more important as leader to listen than to tell.
[00:53:39] Patrick: Wow. Yeah, I agree.
But I make my living listening as a coach. And good coaches learn a couple of things really quick. You got to ask a lot of questions, but then you have to listen to the answers.
Our coach taught us that silence is golden in coaching. Ask the question and then don't be tempted. Don't give into the temptation to step in and save them and answer it. Just listen carefully with what they say and with what they don't say.
[00:54:10] Paul: It's one thing that a leader should know. If you ask a question and you get a response, you will need to take the consequences.
[00:54:18] Patrick: That's right.
[00:54:19] Paul: You can't say, thank you very much. I'm not going to do it.
[00:54:22] Patrick: Yeah, we say that in surveys. Don't ask questions on a survey that you don't really want the answer to.
[00:54:27] Paul: Exactly.
[00:54:27] Patrick: Paul, thank you so much. You've been so generous with your time and with your expertise and your mindset. I really do appreciate it. This is going to be great.
This is one to go back and listen to several times and take good notes, particularly on the research. Thank you, Paul. I really appreciate it. All right, folks, you know what to go do.
[00:54:45] Paul: Yes, thank you.
[00:54:47] Patrick: Oh, yes.
[00:54:48] Paul: For having me.
[00:54:49] Patrick: It's my pleasure. Absolutely my privilege. All right, folks, you know what to go do from here. Lead on.